For the foreseeable future we are going to emphasize discovering what faiths [or lack of faith] have on there minds and hearts. We will provide examples of belief and our responses as samples of how one might explain and defend our Catholic Faith in a manner that responds to their specific issues with the truth; which God Himself ordains be on our side. The primary tool for this will be our Bible as it is the instrument most often selected to disprove our legitimate claim as the sole and only Faith and church founded by God Himself; protected by God Himself and guided by God Himself.
An Agnostic ASK?
I’m a Catholic by Pat Miron
“I would like some help on the divinity of jesus and the reliability of the new testament. I suppose every few days would be good. Thank you so much.
I suppose I want proof that the miracles were not later embellishments and all that jazz. I want to know if things just got mixed up in the time during oral tradition”
I suppose I want proof that the miracles were not later embellishments and all that jazz. I want to know if things just got mixed up in the time during oral tradition”
I’ll address your concerns as individual topics. In order to do so it seems prudent try to establish the Bible as our primary tool for verification.
The Bible either has to be Entirely true or it is of NO use at all in teaching or learning ones Faith and what is really necessary for ones Salvation. Without the Bible and it’s truths, there seems to be a GIANTIC void in just how anyone would learn their Faith and the essential Salvation issues. A situation of great difficulty, if not actual impossibility would exist.
POINT #1: There always has been ONLY One God, Only one set of acceptable teachings [Faith-beliefs] by that One God and always only One “Faith organization” [ie. The Jewish Community in the OT, and expanded to “ ALL” THROUGH the CC in the NT; Matt. 28:19-20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." Verse 16 of this same passage specifies the Eleven remaining Apostles as the ones given this Command personally from Jesus.
POINT #2 The Old Testament God and the NT God are the SAME ONE GOD. And the purpose of the OT is to POINT to the Jesus in the NT. As Messiah [“Savior”].
The Catholic Church uses a “tripod” type of approach to teach. The three “legs” of this tripod are 1. Sacred Tradition [from which much of the OT comes] 2. The Bible and 3. Logic [common sense] Mary is the Mother of Jesus; Jesus is God = Mary therefore must be the “Mother of God” [which is the point we shall attempt to next prove.
So you ask for verification of Jesus as Divinity: God and we shall attempt to use all three legs of the teaching tripod to supply the answer.
“IS JESUS GOD”?
A PRIMARY goal of the OT is to point to a coming Messiah [means Savior]. [A time when a more informed; better educated population will live under Grace, and no longer ONLY under God’s laws.] Many of these prophesies date to about 800 years before the birth of Jesus. So the questions are: what are the prophesies? AND is it Jesus who fills them? As a FYI, I will be quoting some Christian, BUT non-Catholic Authors to supply the information I will share. I do this to insure a impartiality of the information, to show that there is BROAD belief and acceptance of this concept and knowing that it conforms [unless NOTED] to Catholic Teaching.
FROM: http://www.digisys.net/users/ddalton/never_existed.htm
God and certainly Jesus as “god“ do not exist: “This is perhaps one of the most irrational arguments used by those who try to discredit Jesus and the Christian Faith. To believe that even a small group of people (the 12 disciples) would fabricate a "mythical" person and claim him to be God, then promptly lay there own worldly desires aside, remain in poverty the rest of their lives, be continuously punished and tortured for holding on to their claim that this "Jesus" was God, even to the point of death (all of them were either killed or imprisoned until death), takes a far larger leap of faith than simply believing that Jesus existed in the first place. Not to mention the fact that when these disciples went about "preaching the gospel" of Jesus to the people, these people could and would have easily been able to refute their "ridiculous" claims of some man named Jesus going around healing the blind, being put to death on a cross, and even the "far fetched" notion of resurrection.
The articles below contain even more facts and plain old common sense to help clear up this groundless argument that "Jesus never existed".
So Let’s begin our search for TRUTH, which by the way MUST always be singular: One truth per precise issue, is the only logical possibility.
STEP #One: Evidence in Secular [no religious bias ] History of a person KNOWN as “JESUS”.
Written by Michael Gleghorn
“Evidence from Tacitus
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements. In the introduction to one of his books, F.F. Bruce tells about a Christian correspondent who was told by an agnostic friend that "apart from obscure references in Josephus and the like," there was no historical evidence for the life of Jesus outside the Bible. This, he wrote to Bruce, had caused him "great concern and some little upset in [his] spiritual life." He concludes his letter by asking, "Is such collateral proof available, and if not, are there reasons for the lack of it?" The answer to this question is, "Yes, such collateral proof is available," and we will be looking at some of it in this article.
Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament." Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
“Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome“. . .
Evidence from Pliny the Younger
Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians. Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind. [Like Christ Himself: ALL good things ..Pat]
Evidence from Josephus
Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ." F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother." And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that Josephus actually penned this passage.
As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.
Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D. But why do they think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.
For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, "if indeed one ought to call him a man," is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as "the so-called" Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus' resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!
But even if we disregard the questionable parts of this passage, we are still left with a good deal of corroborating information about the biblical Jesus. We read that he was a wise man who performed surprising feats. And although He was crucified under Pilate, His followers continued their discipleship and became known as Christians. When we combine these statements with Josephus' later reference to Jesus as "the so-called Christ," a rather detailed picture emerges which harmonizes quite well with the biblical record. It increasingly appears that the "biblical Jesus" and the "historical Jesus" are one and the same!
Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud
There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200. The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Hebrew for Jesus] was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy." [“Hanged” is synonymous with crucifixion]
Let's examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone named "Yeshu." So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, "Yeshu" (or "Yeshua") is how Jesus' name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the passage mean by saying that Jesus "was hanged"? Doesn't the New Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term "hanged" can function as a synonym for "crucified." For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was "hanged", and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus. So the Talmud declares that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were planning to do. If so, Roman involvement changed their plans!
The passage also tells us why Jesus was crucified. It claims He practiced sorcery [miracles] and enticed Israel to apostasy! Since this accusation comes from a rather hostile source, we should not be too surprised if Jesus is described somewhat differently than in the New Testament. But if we make allowances for this, what might such charges imply about Jesus?” END of this SECTION:
MATT, If you think it important I can send you ALL of My research documents? Just Let me Know?
STEP # Two: OT prophesies of a coming Messiah:
“Couldn’t Someone Just Write These Down and Pretend They Were Written Earlier?”
Many people who do not believe in the Bible say this. However, manuscripts have been found that confirm that these various prophecies were written down 400-1,000 years before they actually occurred. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls put to rest most of such idle talk.
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml
Copyright © 1998 by Clarifying Christianity (SM).
Printed copies of articles from this site may be circulated if those articles are reproduced in their entirety, along with their copyright notices.
Printed copies of articles from this site may be circulated if those articles are reproduced in their entirety, along with their copyright notices.
Old Testament Scriptures That Describe The Coming Messiah
The Messianic Prophecy (paraphrased) Where the prophecy appears in the Old Testament (written between 1450 BC and 430BC) Jesus’ fulfillment of the prophecy in the New Testament (written between 45 and 95 AD)
The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30
The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked Psalm 22:7 Luke 23:11,35-39
The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39; John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 John 19:31-33,36
Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24
The Messiah will be accused by false witnesses Psalm 35:11 Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57
The Messiah will be hated without a cause Psalm 35:19 and 69:4 John 15:23-25 The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend Psalm 41:9 John 13:18,21
The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God) Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22 . . .
The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30 Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah Psalm 72:10,11 Matthew 2:1-11
The Messiah is a “stone the builders rejected” who will become the “head cornerstone” Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16 Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8
The Messiah will be a descendant of David Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16 Luke 1:32,33
The Messiah will be a born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-7 Matthew 4:12-16
The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47
The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31 The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah) Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38
The Messiah will be rejected Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15 The Messiah will be killed Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30
The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14
The Messiah will be buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42 The Messiah will be crucified with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33 The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13
The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15
The Messiah has two missions Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at “. . . year of the LORD’s favor”) First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world
The Messiah will come at a specific time Daniel 9:25-26 Galatians 4:4 and Ephesians 1:10 The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11
The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56
The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45
That my Fiend is 31 different prophesies that were ALL fulfilled by Jesus Christ
Step # Three: Is Jesus the long awaited Messiah?
What can we learn from Old Testament prophecy concerning the Messiah?
http://www.allabouttruth.org/old-testament-prophecy-concerning-the-messiah-faq.htm
It is a fact that Old Testament prophecy concerning the Messiah -- the first coming and the ministry of the Messiah -- were fulfilled to the letter in the New Testament. Just to name a few:
It is a fact that Old Testament prophecy concerning the Messiah -- the first coming and the ministry of the Messiah -- were fulfilled to the letter in the New Testament. Just to name a few:
STEP # 3a. Does Jesus fulfill these prophesies?
Evidence that Jesus Christ is the Messiah By: Matthew McGee
Acts 18:24 tells us of a man named Apollos, who was "an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures". Apollos used the scriptures to convince many Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. Acts 18:28 says, "... he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ." This was in about 53 AD, around 20 years after Christ's crucifixion. Since the vast majority of the portion of scripture commonly called the "New Testament" had not yet been written, it is apparent that when Acts 18:24 refers to "the scriptures", it is referring to the portion of scripture commonly called the "Old Testament".
There are at least four reasons that provide evidence that the 39 books of the Old Testament date back to a time long before Jesus Christ's earthly ministry:
1. It was proven by the finding of the dead sea scrolls, which include the Old Testament writings and predate Christ's earthly ministry.
2. Even those of the Jew's religion, who do not believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah, agree that these 39 books were written prior to 300 BC.
3. The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, was initiated in the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus (285-246 BC). Obviously, the Old Testament had to have already been written in order to have been translated.
4. Jesus Christ and the various New Testament writers frequently quoted from the books of the Old Testament.
Some skeptics have tried to contend that there must have been some collaboration between the many writers of the Bible. However, there were many Old Testament prophets scattered over a 1000-year period who have given detailed descriptions regarding the same events which have proven to be accurate. So the skeptics' charges of collaboration are not at all credible.
Abundant evidence of the deity of Jesus Christ is revealed through the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies and through symbols (also called types or shadows) of Jesus Christ. Thus, we can see how the coming of the Messiah was all in God's plan and was foretold in the Old Testament.
Fulfilled Prophecies
The following prophecies concerning Jesus Christ were given in the Old Testament during the time frame of approximately 1700 BC - 400 BC. These prophecies were fulfilled hundreds of years later, during Jesus Christ's life on earth. Each of the prophecies listed below are followed in parentheses by the scripture references for both the prophecy and the fulfillment.
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