“Answers to my Catholic Friends” by Thomas F. Heinze
Protestant Theology & Catholic Doctrines
Exposed to cover & discover the “Naked Truth“... Catholic responses to the Booklet: “Answers to my Catholic Friends” by Thomas F. Heinze Part 2
A Catholic reply to Protestant “[mis]- Understandings” Part 2
“Do the Bread and Wine Become Christ Body and Blood”?
My dear friends in Christ,
Allow me to please set a platform for this part of the discussion. I do not exaggerate one iota when I claim
that this topic, while wrongly understood, is nevertheless a well thought out and formulated thesis. It is draconian in nature because it attempts to place a STAKE into the very heart, body, mind and soul of the entirety of our Catholic beliefs. If one is unable to defend this issue, of Christ “Real Presence, one is unable to defend Catholism in total. They win; we lose! …WHY?
1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life." "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch." [Sacrifice]
1074 "The liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; it is also the font from which all her power flows." It is therefore the privileged place for catechizing the People of God. "Catechesis is intrinsically linked with the whole of liturgical and sacramental activity, for it is in the sacraments, especially in the Eucharist, that Christ Jesus works in fullness for the transformation of men."
Catholics Reply:
I shall include my comments directly under his, comments, in order to make it an easy reference to each specific point that Thomas has raised. This is indeed a well thought out position. BUT is proves clearly and without discussion that it is based ONLY on only human logic. No credit is given to Jesus as a all- Good-God; able to do ANY GOOD THING. If in FACT, the Catholic position is correct; then this becomes the GREATEST POSSIBLE GOOD in the entire history of the Universe.
I’m finding it beneficial to keep reminding myself that Thomas too, like us is a Baptized Christian. A Brother in Christ, and that this is not a direct assault on us personally. It is evident the he loves, and in his own way is serving God. It is also evident that my understanding of God limiting Protestant understanding is too correct. While the arguments are well thought out, and a bit different than the normal Protestant explanation; based on John 6: selected verses; 35-69, there clearly is lacking the depth of understanding of God’s very Nature and the precise reason for human existence and how they necessarily relate as expressed within the Bible itself. God’s basis for imposing such a penalty is::
Matt. 25: 27-29 …“So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. … For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away” All those who are “given more “ [Baptized], will be held to a far more critical evaluation by God., as the Holy Spirit is AVAILABLE to them for guidance.
1st. Cor. 11:23-29
“For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself”
Because we can safely assume that Mr. Heinze does not accept this Catholic teaching, rather than detail the specifics in detail; I will instead simply supply his arguments against and denying the reality of Christ Real Presence and then respond to each of them. But first here is a Catholic Response to this Catholic belief and practice.
The Eucharist; explained by Catholics
I AM Catholic, by Pat Miron
Mark.12: 24 “Jesus said to them, "Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God?”
POINT #1. The Body of evidence that supports WHY and HOW we Catholics have and continue to Hold this DIVINE-Truth is solidly biblically grounded, solidly Theologically grounded, and can be proven to have been correctly understood, lived and practiced from the time of Christ death to the present times, and beyond. That friends is some TWO-THOUSAND YEARS!
POINT #2. People do not willingly give their life in barbaric, gruesome manners without evident cause. Each of the Apostles [except John who they tried to boil alive in oil; but was saved by God’s direct intervention], and a GREAT many others, including many early Popes, did just that. And many continue to the present time doing exactly that! There were MORE Catholic Martyrs in the Twentieth Century than EVRY preceding Century combined.” WHY? Because there is wider and greater disbelief then ever before.
POINT #3. In addition to the Bibles information CORRECTLY understood, with it’s Testimony of FIVE different New Testament Authors; ALL INSPIRED BY GOD HIMSELF, there is the actual Testimony and Personal Witness of Jesus Christ who is a Perfect God. 2nd. Tim. 3:16-17 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
John 5:[RSV] 3-36-38 “But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent.”
POINT #4. It is necessary to point out that denial of this Truth on which the entirety of Christianity rest, is factually a “Denial of God Himself.” The One unforgivable sin. [Luke 12:10] The reality of Christ Real presence can ONLY be grasped, and accepted through the red-tinted glasses of God’s Love for His created Humanity. Nothing Good is impossible for God. Manna, [signifying bread] ,the quail, [signifying meat-flesh], water [signifying life]. from the Rock and the First Miracle in Cana; transforming one substance [water] into another substance [wine]; ALL point to the “Real Presence” and God’s ability to do it.
Instead of this, you nourished your people with food of angels and furnished them bread from heaven, ready to hand, untoiled-for, endowed with all delights and conforming to every taste. For this substance of yours revealed your sweetness toward your children, and serving the desire of him who received it, was blended to whatever flavor [needs] each one wished. (Wisdom 16:20-21)
For the elements changed places with one another, as on a harp the notes vary the nature of the rhythm, while each note remains the same. This may be clearly inferred from the sight of what took place. For land animals were transformed into water creatures, and creatures that swim moved over to the land. Fire even in water retained its normal power, and water forgot its fire-quenching nature. Flames, on the contrary, failed to consume the flesh of perishable creatures that walked among them, nor did they melt the crystalline, easily melted kind of heavenly food. (Wisdom 19:18-21)
POINT #5. God is ever-constant. Cannot change who and what he is. But the Old Testament points to the Messiah in the New Testament: The term ‘”Messiah” means “”Savior” Christ promised His Apostles specifically and precisely to “remain with THEM FOREVER“, and this follows in direct sequence order, AFTER the Resurrection of Christ. in Matt. 28:16-20 “Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. [Thomas doubted Christ resurrection] And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. … Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
Here we have God affirming to His Apostles and through them His catholic Church to “remain with them forever! NOTE, He has JUST RISEN FROM THE DEAD and was speaking BODILY to them”
He explains HOW he God can do this: “ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH HAS BEEN GRANTRD TO ME.”
He Affirm that He WILL Do this: “and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
And He explains WHY He will do this: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” This can ONLY be accomplished with God’s direct intervention.
POINT #6. Isa.43 Verses 7and 21: “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”
It is in these passages; these indicators of precisely WHY humanity exist; and precisely WHY Jesus Instituted the Most Holy Eucharist.. Humanity is the ONLY part of God’s Created Universe that stems from God’s own want. God is Love and desires to be equally loved in return. This can only be possible with Direct intervention and DIRECT AID form God Himself. There is and there can be no greater source of GRACE on earth that Catholic Holy Communion, because it IS GOD HIMSELF, and when we CHOOSE to receive Him worthily, MANY are the graces bestowed upon us. I… t is far more evident that it is God seeking a Personal Relationship with His Created, and will suffer any Humility to accomplish it; then it is clear that humanity seeks a personal relationship with Our God. This God sought Personal relationship is no more evident than in Catholic Holy Communion. Where [Catholic] humanity not only MEETS our God; but in a real sense becomes One WITH our God and thus consummates the MOST INTIMATE of all possible personal relationships.
POINT #7 Matthew 26: 26-28
And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.
POINT #8 MARK 14: 22-24
And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.
Point #9 Luke 22: 19-21
And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.
Point # 10 Paul 1 Cor.11: 23-29
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come. POINT # 11 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: [to be worthy of the privilege] and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself”
It is an impossibility that Paul could have uttered these words of Grave Spiritual warning, IF he were NOT knowingly speaking of the Transubstantiation of ordinary bread and wine into the very Real, now Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. One is not “condemned for consuming ONLY ordinary bread and wine!”
POINT # 12 The term applied to the practice of the Eucharist begin as “The Breaking of the Bread”
Acts.2: 42, 46 “And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, so it is evident that the Teaching of Christ was both CORRECTLY understood, and accepted and put into practice immediately after His Death. The first “churches” were peoples homes.
POINT # 13 The early Church Fathers interpreted these passages literally. In summarizing the early Fathers’ teachings on Christ’s Real Presence, renowned Protestant historian of the early Church J. N. D. Kelly, writes: "Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood" (Early Christian Doctrines, 440).
Ignatius of Antioch
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).
"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
POINT # 14 Justin Martyr
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).
POINT #15 Irenaeus
"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).
"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).
"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).
"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).
Point #16 Clement of Alexandria
"’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).
"’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).
POINT # 16 John.8: 47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." … 2Thes.2: 11 “Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false,”… 1John.4: 6 “We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error”… John.8 Verses 43 to 47 : “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." …Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.” … Romans 13: 2 “Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
POINT #17 Not one time in the entire Bible or in Tradition did or has God EVER permitted belief in # 1. More than one God [Triune] # 2. More than the ONLY Set of Faith-beliefs that He Himself Taught # 3. Or has God protected more than His Chosen People; now the Catholic Church. ALWAYS Only One Church [Jn.14:16-17; Jn.17: 15-19, And Jn.20:19-22]
Because the Bible is a Catholic Book and was completely written by the End of the First Century; the ONLY “church” in existence in the Entire world is today’s Roman catholic Church. Thus every biblical reference to a “church” or “churches” applies specifically and exclusively to today’s RCC.
Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.
John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”
Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”
Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,”
POINT # 18... It is amazing is a sense that Brother Thomas not once referenced John’s “Bread of Life Discourse,” the longest and most explicit of all of the bible testimonies, and very often quoted in the denial by Protestants of the True Teaching on the “Real Presence” BY Jesus HIMSELF. … Then again it shows good judgment because there is an abundance of Christ; “First Person” teachings that supports the Catholic position.
John Chapter Six “The Bread of Life Discourse”
[35] Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. … This Is God; “All-knowing,” All-Wise” and All-Perfect who is unable to lie of mislead anyone, which would be a Denial of God’s Divinity, speaking in the First-Person as Our God, to His NEW “chosen-people.”
[36] But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. …
Being God and able to read minds and hearts: Jesus is completely aware of who it is that will DENY Him., and on what basis they choose to do so, but makes no changes to what he is proclaiming as Our God, who came to both Redeem and to Save us…. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
This is spoken precisely to inform those present that EVEN if they have doubts that He is the Messiah; this is the Devine Will of Almighty God the Father
[41] The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." [42] They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, `I have come down from heaven'?" …[READ MARK 6:1-6 FOR THE SAME POSITION] And HERE we see where Thomas inherits his secular-humanistic-human logic ALONE thinking from. Here then are the ground’s for their unbelief and actual Denial of God. SECUALR-Humanistic Logic ONLY is applied without Faith, even without Hope or Love, that, admitted or not, stems from a Denial that Jesus Is god; and is capable of accomplishing “any good thing.”
[44] ; “and I will raise him up at the last day. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” …. This of course is a precise reference to Heb. 3:12, quoted earlier.
[47] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. [48] I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. [50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
One ought to see that each proclamation and explanation is more clear than that which precedes it. Here Christ makes the comparison with what He is proclaiming HIMSELF as the “Bread of Life”; to what actually WAS the “bread of life” to their ancestors. And He goes even further in explaining that HE [Jesus] now IS [no ambiguity here] the New and now PERFECTED “Bread of Life.” And further EXPLAINS exactly WHY he has Chosen to do this. In order to be not only “a source of Grace”; but to become THEE source of Grace “par excelnance.” PLEASE NOTICE that this is NOT a “done deal”; where everyone who receives Catholic Holy Communion worthily is guaranteed “personal salvation” ; rather only that this is the best possible means available for humanity to merit it. [And Like redemption itself; God desires to make it conditionally available to ALL of humanity]. … Then using the most precise term available and possible PROCLAIMS as GOD; that His Flesh is not merely “a sign, nor only a symbol”; BUT His Real [now Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity: the ENTIRE Risen Christ! AMEN!
[52] The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" This brazen response is nothing short of shocking. They have been Blessed as no others in the history of the World to witness personally, the arrival of the Long awaited Messiah and either personally saw or knew of others who actually witnessed one or more miracles done precisely in order to prove His Divinity First; then secondarily, to assist those in need. Once again is the CLEAR and PRESENT DANGER of secular-humanistic-logic; completely VOID of Faith, of Hope or of Love.
The Lord’s response is one ONLY God can make. Both in its charity and its clarity.
[53] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; [54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. [56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
In my opinion; nobody can even envision a more precise, a more direct, nor a more forceful expression and choice of words selected by a Perfect God than those shared here. Jesus could not be more clear, more precise or more specific. Nor SHOULD there be any way, one cannot correctly understand exactly what Christ is Teaching and COMMANDING to happen. But look at the response. The hardened heads and hearts choose to DENY God and abandon Him. And verse [57] explains exactly what takes place in Catholic Holy Communion.
[60] Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"
And choose to leave Christ; to Deny God. …Is what God has imposed upon Protestant lack of understanding sufficient to meet the crime. NO! Even now Christ demonstrates his Love for them, and His desire to also be in a personal relationship with them. One OUGHT NOT ASSUME that because they think that they are in a personal relationship with Christ; that it is reciprocal. Maybe it is; maybe it is not?
[63] It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. This is the verse most often quoted by Protestants as the definitive evidence that Christ [having here denied “the flesh” HAS TO BE SPEAKING SYMBOLICALLY” … Immediately we see God’s imposed lack of understanding taking effect. What Christ is trying to teach here; is that their [the defectors], understanding is partially correct. That His HUMAN BODY, the body and voice speaking to them is of NO Spiritual EFFECT and No Spiritual benefit.. WHAT they fail to understand, lacking Faith, Hope, and Love, is that Jesus KNOWING that he is but hours away from His Passion and death, and KNOWING full well that He will rise again is speaking of His SOON to be, Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity [Matt. 28:20], When Jesus promised to remain with us until the end of time. And NO, He does not spell it our; YET without doing so ALL those who actually DO possess Faith, Hope and Love; get and GOT the correct message. And they has been warned, even if they choose to not comprehend the message.
Matt.17: 9, 23 “And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of man is raised from the dead." .. and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day." And they were greatly distressed.” … Matt.20: 19 “and deliver him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day."
[64] But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. [65] And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." [MEANING: That Only God grants us TRUE Faith and it’s Fruits id Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding.]
[66] After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.
[67] Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" [68] Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; [69] and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."
This final TEST, this last chance, proves beyond any “logical” doubts that Jesus Did MEAD EXACTLY what he said. When many denied and abandoned Him; He did NOT call them back, did NOT change His message, did NOT offer further clarification. What Christ DID do, and DID accomplish in so doing is turn to Peter and the Apostles and ask: Do YOU BELIEVE ME? Or Do you too wish to DENY Me? [69] and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." … And that dear friends is the ONLY response God will accept; because it ALONE is the singular truth. AMEN! Christ HAS Spoken!
[1] This miracle termed “transubstantiation” is not evident
I’m sorry; but I though miracles were mysteries? Not to make light of you’re point. But being “Under Grace” rather than just “the Law” [Rom. 6:14], permits God to expand along with our Understanding, what it is we are to understand through Faith. Heb.11: 1-3 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.” It is after All the very teaching of Jesus Christ Himself”
[2] It is based on a Tradition that entered the church around 300 AD
This is blindly WRONG information. We have given evidence in the Bible, by the Early Fathers and from the Catholic Catechism [ provable in Secular History ], that this teaching was known, accepted and practiced if not immediately after Christ Death, then surely shortly after His Resurrection. It is BASED ON CHRIST PERSONAL TEACHING AND THE TESTIMONY OF GOD AND FIVE OTHER NEW TESTAMENT AUTHORS, NOT TRADITION; ALTHOUGH IT QUICKLY BECAME A KEY PART OF OUT TRADITION.
[3] It did not become a “dogma” until 1215 AD
FROM THE CATHOLIC Encyclopedia
“The persuasion of the Church from Apostolic times about the objective reality of these words of Christ is clear from many documents.”
Irenaeus (Asia Minor, 140 - 202 AD), Tertullian (Rome, 160 - 220 AD), Cyprian (Carthage, 200 - 258 AD) are just a few of the earliest who attest to the objective reality of the words of Christ.
In the Church in Alexandria, Athanasius (293 - 373 AD) and Cyril (376 - 444 AD) equally attest to the literal meaning of the words of Christ at the Last Supper.
In the Church in Palestine, Cyril (Jerusalem, 315 - 387 AD) and Epiphanius (Salamis, 367 - 403 AD) also affirm in their teaching the same reality.
Unanimity is found across the universal church until the 11th century. Berengar (Tours, France, 1000 - 1088) was one of the first to deny the real presence by arguing that Christ is not physically present, but only symbolically.
The Council of Rome (a local council), 1079 AD, taught against Berengar that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ.
By the 16th century, some Reformers (excluding Luther) also taught that Christ's presence in the Eucharist was only figurative or metaphorical. Since there were other opinions being taught as truth (figurative presence and metaphorical presence) a teaching authority had to be appealed to discern error from the truth. The way of the Church was to follow the model of Acts 15.
The Council of Trent (1545 - 1563) defined the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Eucharist as both the continuing sacrifice of Christ and a real sacrament. The institution of the Eucharist as sacrament was contained in the words "Do this in remembrance of me."
The date of declared “Dogma” is significant ONLY in that it raises this believe that has always been held as true, believed, understood and practiced, to a position of indisputable truth. This was made necessary by the Protestant revolution, begun by Martin Luther which soon spread to other “I Know more or I know better” than God and the Catholic Church. Despite regional attacks throughout history , none had ever been serious enough, wide spread enough to require such an action, which has always been held as infallible truth, because God said so.
[4] It was around 1226 that catholics begin to bow down before the bread
Actually is on or far more like, much before 1171.
“On the occasion of the 750th anniversary of the first celebration of the feast of Corpus Christi, the Holy Father wrote a letter to Bishop Albert Houssiau of Liege, Belgium, successor of Bishop Robert of Thourotte, who in 1246 had established the feast which was later extended to the universal Church by Pope Urban IV. Here is a translation of the Pope's Letter, which was dated 28 May and written in French.”
But even this is GREATLY misleading. Catholics right from the beginnings of the RCC, because it REALLY IS Jesus, consistently held the Blessed sacrament in Great honor and with the Highest esteem. That is the message and the cause for the rebuke of 1st. Cor. 11:26-29 and we see CCC 1345; St. Justin Martyr in 155 AD wrote about the Mass: …“He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.”
[5] the church having [now] accepted this tradition, tries to give the practice a strange interpretation based on 1st.Cor. 11:24-25 “and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
Sufficient evidence of the Catholic Belief has been provided above
[6] This strange translation is that the catholic church made is that this bread and wine that Christ held in His hand somehow became his body and blood
To clarify our Teaching as catholics. We UNDERSTAND that the Eucharist is From God [the Father], Of God [Jesus the Son], and caused By God [The Holy Spirit] using His priest. It is a series of miracles that ONLY humanity can benefit from as God is already Perfect.
[7] Because Christ was standing up in front of his disciples it is clear that in holding up the bread and wine and pronouncing the words that “this is My Body; this is My Blood” were intended to be understood [only] symbolically.
No, not at all. Christ made clear just what he did mean; it was understood by the Apostles, and it was put into practice as Jesus commanded after He died. Do not hold god to “time” which is a necessity of humanity; not of God for whom everything is in the “present.”
[8] There can be no doubt of this because he calls “it bread three times”, which he certainly would NOT have done if it really was not ONLY BREAD, but literally his body. {every time you eat this bread” … 1st. Cor. 11:26-28} “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. [PAUL’S Admonition] Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.” … A bit of “slight of hand” is attempted here. Only the first use is from the mouth of Jesus [who clearly] is implying that it is NOW His Body and no-longer just bread… which also is the rebuke Paul gives to those who are not giving IT proper respect and worship!
[9] he MUST have been speaking symbolically either when he was speaking of the bread or when speaking of his body
And this friends is the thinking of secular-humanistic logic; void of Faith, Hope, love and TRUTH.
[10] the question is NOT “should we interpret the passage literally… BUT which part are we to interpret literally and which part symbolically?” DITTO above comments
[11] the only other choice is that it changed from bread to his body then back to bread again
Same lack of understanding repeated here
[12] we find a similar remark in Mark 14:25 “Truly, I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."
This takes place in a Passover meal, and Jesus here refers to the third Traditional cut of wine.
[13] Did he NOT MEAN that it is through him, we can enter into heaven, rather than his body which had been changed into blood.”
Actually it is NOT ONLY “through Him” IT IS Through Him, and With Him and In Him” which exactly why Jesus does it. Because Salvation IS through Jesus; the Eucharist is the GREATEST AID God can provide [conditionally] to lead us to all that is necessary to merit salvation.
[14] Even MORE important at the moment the miracle should occur; nothing happenings
Thomas here’s the deal I’ll make you: YOU show me “grace” and then I’ll show you Jesus REALLY in the Eucharist [actually I intend to do this anyway].
[15] By way of comparison Christ changed water into wine and it became WINE! [Jn.28: 8-10]…Funny you should mention that. This miracle is different from every other Jesus reported miracle in that ALL of the others had a “Spiritual element”, a spiritual benefit. So what and where are the “spiritual element; the spiritual benefit here?” … To Be continued at the Last Supper!
Thomas I don’t want to make light of your point. Every other miracle had physical evidence, and you’re asking why not here? And the Answer is that it is at the Last Supper: REALLY CHRIST, thee miracle of miracles because it is not only done by God; IT IS GOD!
[16] now let us not loose sight of the true purpose of the “communion service”. Christ never ONCE told the disciples to offer up his body again; He told the TWICE to do this “in memory of me.”
Excuse me Brother Thomas;. “Communion service???” NOT !!!!!! “ Mass” YES! With the Transubstaniatiated; REAL Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity: the COMPLETE JESUS CHRIST.
[17] We honor Christ :by doing what he commands. And the FACT that you cannot understand the truth is because you are denying God himself. Relying on self, on your OWN very human logic.
Sir.39: 16 "All things are the works of the Lord, for they are very good, and whatever he commands will be done in his time."
Thomas I promised you in # 14 above that I would show you the evidence you seek. If you’re not too filled with self-importance and pride [the devils KEY to our souls], you’ll grasp it. If not, know that I am praying for you.
Eucharistic Miracles
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.therealpresence.org%2Feucharst%2Fmir%2Fa3.html
Thomas they are so frequent that I invite YOU, to discover this truth; the physical truth you seek can be had.
God Bless,
Pat
The THIRD issue raised is “Can the sacrifice of Christ be Renewed”?
Thomas say’s “NO!”
And this agrees with what we Catholics Actually believe. Christ Sacrifice in the Most holy Eucharist is One and the SAME-IDENTIAL one that claimed Christ Life. We understand that Jesus can ONLY die once in His human nature; thus the Sacrifice is “RE-PRESENTED”; PRESENTED AGAIN AND AGAIN WHICH TOO IS A MIRACLE FROM GOD.
END OF SECOND SECTION # 2
No comments:
Post a Comment